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Rama narrates in detail the Beleri case, tells the 'fate' he will have and has the relationship with Mitsotakis been broken

2023-08-27 10:32:43Politikë SHKRUAR NGA REDAKSIA VOX
Rama narrates in detail the Beleri case, tells the 'fate' he will have
Edi Rama speaking about Kathimerini

The case of the elected mayor of Himara, Fredi Beleri, who is being held in prison on charges of vote-buying for the May 14, 2023 elections, has marked one of the low points of relations between Albania and Greece in the last decade.

Greek media have also covered recent events in Albania, often taking sides.

For this, Prime Minister Edi Rama conducted a long interview with a prestigious Greek newspaper, Kathimerini, where he discussed in detail the fate of Beler, the rhetoric for Hellenization, the properties of the Himariots, as well as the clash with the modern Prime Minister, Kyriakos Mitsotakis.

Edi Rama's interview with Kathimerini:

Mr. Prime Minister, to many you look like a literary hero from a novel by Milan Kundera. A daring artist who rebels against communism, then lives in Paris, returns and becomes the most successful politician of your generation – the only one to be elected prime minister three times. Albania's GDP per person has increased by 50% since 2013 when you became prime minister. A few years ago you said in an interview for the Guardian newspaper that your goal is to place your country "in a safe zone from the curse of history". Did you succeed? On September 15 it will be 10 years since you became Prime Minister and I would like to tell us something you are proud of and something you may regret.

Thank you for this charming introduction, but first of all I would like to say that I do not feel like a hero, I honestly do. I will tell you something. Beards were banned in communist Albania. So there was a barber at the airport and any tourist who had a beard or long hair was said to go to the barber to have his beard removed – Karl Marx could not enter Marxist Albania without a good shave and a haircut and that was not it's a joke.

Yes, I am proud of many things we have managed to do, but we continue, I am not happy, I am not satisfied. I'm a very self-critical person, although it doesn't seem like it, but believe me I am. My harshest judge outside of my home is myself, and in my home, my harshest is my wife—so I'm somewhat safe in the belief that I'm a hero.

Did you feel personally offended that Prime Minister Mitsotakis did not invite you to Athens last Monday's informal dinner with Western Balkan leaders?

First of all, I have learned throughout this lifetime that feeling personally offended is not a good thing to live by. I never take it personally. I just wouldn't do the same and more than that I think the purpose of the meeting and the initiative that Kyriakos took is something really great.

So, linking this very important initiative to send a message to me, to Albania, to this issue, whatever importance it gives to Greece, this is not the right way I think.

I think that especially when unpleasant things happen between friends, friends should talk more with each other, try to understand, respect friendship by being very, very open. So to me Kyriakos was a friend, and he is still a friend whom I love and respect.

- On December 22, 2022, you welcomed Prime Minister Mitsotakis in the village of Derviçan, a few hours after Mitsotakis had campaigned with Beleri in Himare. Did you ever talk to Mitsotakis about your reservations about Beler?

No, and I don't think he campaigned with Beller. We were in Derviçan, yes, I was happy to be with him and promised to put a sculpture in the rebuilt square there to honor his late father, Prime Minister Konstantinos Mitsotakis, who was the first – and the last until Kyriakos came – prime minister who came to Albania and met the Greek citizens in that area.

The visit of Kyriako's father was a very important moment in the history of this community.

However, I have not ordered the sculpture to be stopped, we want it to be there before October 28, which is an important date for Greece. So anyone coming from Greece on this day will find the bust of Konstantinos Mitsotakis in the square. This is how I think we honor the bond between Albanians and Greeks.

- Let's move on to the sharp issue. My first question is why did you choose to personally attack a mayoral candidate? During the election campaign, you called Beler "illiterate", "scum", "ugly face to scare". You are the Prime Minister and considering your role and institutional position, was not your intervention equivalent to a call to the police and justice institutions to single out, to target this candidate?

Thanks for the question. First of all, sometimes in politics you can say things you're not proud of and in this campaign, yes, I may have said some things that I don't feel good about. The reason why I was harsh with him was because he made some very unacceptable statements – as if he was going to advance the process of Hellenization of Himara. You know, that's not something you say in Europe.

He said he was there to free Himara, I don't know from who. But I have to ask a rhetorical question: If I knew that an investigation had started from someone's report to the prosecutor, would I expose myself in this frank language?

If I had known he was going to be arrested, would I have exposed myself to such frank language?

I do not think so. I found out about his arrest when the Police was in action. I called the Chief of Police and asked "what is this?".

He said that "we have an arrest warrant from the prosecutor and it is based on strong evidence of vote buying".

I said, “Listen, you better be sure of what you're doing. Because it can be very bad and it has to be based on strong evidence." It wasn't something I was personally involved in.

– There is a possibility that both places (have been lost) in translation regarding "Hellenization" (the word). Beller's friends insist that he never spoke of the Hellenization of which he spoke, in Greek, "ελληνισμός" (hellinismos) (that is "the Hellenes", the Greeks. He just told the people in Himara that his victory would be good for "hellinismos" for the inhabitants of Himara.

Listen, in the end it's not just that word, and it's not generally whatever the guy stands for that's a completely different view of the world compared to mine. This has nothing to do with what happened. What happened next was not politics, it was a matter of the rule of law.

- According to my sources in Athens, handling the Beleri case threatens Albania's reputation in the EU - for three reasons: First, we know that Beleri was not arrested at the scene of the alleged crime. Second, he is denied special permission to take the oath. And thirdly he's still in custody even though he can't commit the same alleged crime again – there's no election to influence, the witness examination is over, so he can't interfere with it, and he's the head of elected municipality - why run away? Therefore, Athena says we have a wrongful arrest, a wrongful detention, and a wrongful denial of one's rights. This is why Athens has taken this position against the issue.

I understand that, but I don't agree with any of them, and first of all I don't agree that a foreign country, a foreign government can comment on the actions of another country's justice system - even if they were very friendly. This is not European, in my opinion.

And then, we don't know everything about the matter. We will know everything when the special prosecutor presents the full evidence in front of the courtroom. But based on what we know, he was initially caught in a vote-buying act.

Secondly, nowhere, in any Albanian jurisdiction, does the government or the prime minister have the authority to grant permission to a detainee to be released from prison.

And finally, he is detained as he has not been able to be released in all three levels of justice in Albania.

So my question is very simple: Where am I and where is the government of Albania in all this?

The Special Prosecutor's Office against Organized Crime and the Special Courts against corruption were created as an implementation of the justice reform. A to Z was conceived, written, approved and implemented under the strict monitoring of the EU and with the full support of the US and the EU, including Greece.

And these bodies have also imprisoned four or five mayors of the Socialist Party of Albania, if I haven't lost count.

- These were mayors in office. They were arrested for crimes they committed during their tenure

Yes, but I say all this because I wanted to say that these structures are completely independent of any influence and any possible interference.

- The Greek government emphasizes that Beleri is the only one held for this specific crime in Albania. The penalty is disproportionate - only for almost 300 euros. There were 31 incidents of bribery on the same election day in May, but all are acquitted. 31 incidents, 30 of them are free and only one candidate accused of a suspected crime, Beleris, is in prison.

My answer is very simple: First, arresting and imprisoning one and letting others go has nothing to do with the government or me. Secondly, the prison sentence of one is due to the fact that he was arrested in the country. Other cases are based on allegations by others and investigations are ongoing. So the comparison doesn't really hold.

- According to a video posted on Facebook, Beleri, when he was arrested, he was in a different restaurant from the one where the alleged crime was committed by someone who worked for him. He was in another restaurant talking with his cousin and a lawyer. Beleris was not at the scene of the alleged crime.

No one knows the full evidence except the prosecutors. This is not public. The full evidence is still under investigation seal until they sit in court and put it in front of a judge.

So when that happens, then it will be public knowledge and everyone can then judge.

I don't comment because I never comment on what these institutions do and you can't find a single case to prove otherwise, although I might not have the same idea as the prosecutors in every case. The only government intervention since that time, the Justice Reform has taken its course, is the intervention of the Greek government. There is and will be no interference from the Albanian government.

– Are you ready to politically support the option for Beleri to take the oath inside the prison in the presence of a notary?

Can you find any smaller window in our law that allows swearing in prison with a notary present? There is no such thing.

- Legal experts in Athens know that there is a precedent in Tirana when on November 14, 2019, Arta Vorpsi, judge of the Constitutional Court, overcame Ilir Meta's resistance to accept him by taking the oath in the presence of a notary.

Look, first of all she was a free person who had this idea to do this and by the way it didn't work for her. Second, we are now talking about someone who is in prison. When it comes to swearing, the law is specific. The oath is taken in front of the municipality and nowhere else.

– The head of the prison is not a member of the court. He is a member of the Ministry of Interior and could give Beleris permission to appear in the city council. But he didn't.

The warden does not have this right to grant a permit because the warden cannot grant permits to detainees. Only the court can, and the court refused to do so.

- So, prime minister, will you hold new elections for Himara?

Here you can get a "scoop".

- I'm happy to get a "scoop", of course.

Well... I'm not sure you should take it because... First of all, in Albania it's not the government that wants new elections, it's the President.

But here's how the process goes: If someone who gets elected doesn't show up for the swearing-in for 90 days, then it's up to the government to take care of that person by firing them, putting in a caretaker until a new election happens after the president announces it.

I asked my lawyers to prepare an argument and I don't know what the argument will be - but I think this case is special - there is no precedent for it.

So my instinct or my natural reaction is that maybe we should wait for the trial.

Pra, ne nuk mund të vazhdojmë derisa ai të provohet fajtor ose jo fajtor. Por ky nuk është një opinion ligjor, kjo është vetëm ajo që unë mendoj se duhet të bëjmë bazuar në faktin se nuk kemi një precedent.

Por po, ne mund të shkojmë në çdo drejtim bazuar në argumentet e zyrës sonë ligjore. Mendoj se ka mundësi që të mos veprojmë derisa të vendosë gjykata. Në këtë rast, ne i japim të gjithëve mundësinë ta shikojnë deri në fund. Nëse ligjërisht nuk është e mundur, atëherë duhet ta shkarkojmë atë.

– Kam lexuar në biografinë tuaj disa detaje dhe më keni thënë pak më parë se nëna juaj është nga Vunoi i Himarës. Ndiheni pak si vendas himarjot?

Dëgjo, nuk e di nëse e keni edhe ju në Greqi të njëjtën gjë, për të thënë se një burrë vjen gjithmonë nga fshati i gruas…

– Po, thuhet edhe në Greqi.

Gruaja ime është nga Tirana, unë jetoj në Tiranë dhe ndihem vendas nga Tirana, por po, kam një lidhje shumë të fortë me Himarën, me Vunoin, lidhje shumë e fortë. Nëna ime ishte një “Vouniotissa” shumë tipike, për Vunoin thonë se ethet normale janë 38, ndaj më pëlqen.

– Ke thënë “Vouniotissa”, pra dini greqisht…

“Unë nuk di greqisht, vëllai im di më shumë, ka mësuar disa kur ishte në Korfuz. Dhe më vjen shumë keq që nuk jam në gjendje ta flas këtë gjuhë, sepse mua më tingëllon si një gjuhë e bukur dhe më pas është gjuha e njerëzve të mëdhenj.”

– Dhe meqë ndjeni fort për Himarën, a keni ndonjë mesazh për njerëzit e minoritetit grek që jetojnë në Himarë?

Mendoj se kushdo qoftë në Himarë apo në të gjithë minoritetin grek kudo që jeton, e dinë shumë mirë që jetojnë në këtë vend krejtësisht të barabartë me shqiptarët. Me problemet dhe të mirat. Unë nuk di ende një problem të vetëm që mund të gjeni për grekët dhe është vetëm për grekët, nëse dini një, më tregoni.

– Kam dëgjuar se ka ende një problem për të drejtat pronësore të qytetarëve të Himarës. Dhe në Athinë thuhet se titujt e pronësisë u jepen himarjotëve vetëm nëse tashmë kanë rënë dakord t’ia shesin investitorëve të mëdhenj strategjikë. Në 10 vitet që qeverisni Shqipërinë dhe tre vjet pasi Kuvendi miratoi ligjin e ri për pronat, a e dini ndoshta sa tituj pronësie u janë dhënë himarjotëve pa i shitur menjëherë pronat e tyre investitorëve strategjikë?

Para së gjithash, ky është një rrotullim total. Sepse historia e titujve të pronësisë në Shqipëri është diçka shumë e dhimbshme.

Na u desh të kalonim ferrin e shtetëzimit të plotë dhe më pas na u desh të kalonim nëpër purgatorin e tranzicionit – ku titujt e pronësisë ishin viktima e parë e madhe. Ka pasur një rrëmujë të madhe në çdo kilometër katror të vendit.

Ne kemi ende probleme të mëdha në veri ku ka prona të mëdha ende të pa regjistruara. Së dyti, të thuash se pronat e tyre njihen vetëm pasi bëjnë marrëveshje me këdo, nuk është logjikë.

Sepse nuk ka asnjë marrëveshje që mund të bëni dhe lejet e zhvillimit që mund të merrni nëse nuk i keni titujt. Pra, ju duhet të keni titujt. Kjo është çmenduri.

A e dini sa është shitur toka pranë bregut të Himarës? Kemi sot në Himarë situata që pronat shiten shumë më lart se shumë pjesë të Korfuzit.

Titujt e pronave që i janë dhënë minoritetit grek gjatë mandatit tim janë të panumërt. Krahasoni ato me atë që ndodhi më parë: Zero, zero! Jo një, zero. Minoriteti grek sot shkon në kishat që kanë tituj pronësie. Kishat nuk kishin tituj pronësie pasi komunistët i hoqën nga titujt e tyre. Dhe qeveria ime u dha atyre titujt.

-Pra, nuk ka asnjë problem specifik me titujt në Himarë…

Të gjitha problemet me të drejtat e pronësisë në Shqipëri nga Veriu në Jug janë të njëjta. Problemi është se disa njerëz që duken më inteligjentë se të tjerët, dinë të përdorin flamurin grek si kartë krediti.

Dinë të përdorin flamurin grek si një mënyrë për të djegur helmin dhe për të mbështetur interesat e tyre shumë të vogla, duke përdorur flamurin grek. Është diçka që disa njerëz e bëjnë – shqiptarët e bëjnë duke përdorur flamurin e Partisë Socialiste ose atë të Partisë Demokratike ose flamujt e partive të tjera – sepse ju e dini, ata nuk mund të pretendojnë se janë pakicë këtu duke u shkatërruar, ose anëtarë të një pakice duke u shqyer.

Kur bëhet fjalë për disa njerëz në minoritetin grek, ata janë shumë të mirë në manipulimin e Athinës dhe Athina nuk është e mirë për të kuptuar se shanset më të mira që kanë për të përmirësuar marrëdhëniet dhe për të përmirësuar jetën e Minoriteti grek nuk është një grek, jam vetëm unë, jo sepse po punoj për grekët, por sepse po punoj për të gjithë, dhe mendoj se grekët në Shqipëri janë një thesar dhe ne kemi për të çmuar praninë e tyre, kjo është ajo.

Por pasi ka disa shqiptarë që nuk kam kënaqësi të ndaj të njëjtin gjak me ta, ka edhe disa grekë që nuk duhet të ndiheni shumë krenarë që ndani të njëjtin gjak.

– Ka histori të anëtarëve të qeverisë që mbështesin interesa të veçanta në Himarë. Një prej tyre është historia e Artan Gacit, bashkëshortit të ministres së Jashtme Olta Xhacka, i cili është pronar i AGTCC Hotel Management dhe kjo kompani është caktuar si investitor strategjik në Himarë. U bë një bisedë e madhe në Parlament dhe në Gjykatën e Lartë. Cili është komenti juaj për këtë?

Dëgjo, nëse bisedat në Parlament ishin prova, atëherë nuk duhet të flasësh me mua, duhet të lajmërosh policinë se ku jam.

Çdo hotel në Shqipëri që është përballë plazhit, kudo, ka lejen e përdorimit të plazhit. Pra, leja që iu dha këtij grupi ishte mes mijëra e mijëra lejeve nga veriu i Adriatikut në jug.

Pyetja nuk u ngrit nga pronarët që u grabitën. Sepse pronarët atje bënë një marrëveshje si kudo dhe kur pronarët janë të pakënaqur ata nuk e bëjnë marrëveshjen ose flasin në rast se u bëhet padrejtësi.

Pyetja ime është e thjeshtë: çfarë duan njerëzit që reagojnë? A duan që njerëzit që jetojnë në Himarë të zhvillojnë tokën e tyre apo të qëndrojnë atje si Robinson Crousoé?

Njerëzit e zhvillojnë tokën e tyre, në bazë të planeve sigurisht, marrin para, marrin shumë para. Ne duam të zhvillojmë Himarën, duam të zhvillojmë çdo pjesë të vendit, në bazë të kontratave dhe nuk më gjeni dot një rast.. që në një zonë, ne morëm tokë, ne lejuam investime strategjike duke cenuar të drejtat e pronarëve.

– Së fundmi në paraqitjen tuaj në CHATHAM HOUSE në Londër thatë: “Unë luftoj për një vend të hapur dhe të lirë”. Epo, do të ishte një gjest mjaft i guximshëm ndaj grekëve të Himarës nëse do të pranonit që mësimet e dy viteve të fundit në gjimnazin privat të Himarës të ishin në greqisht si vitet e mëparshme. A do të ishit të gatshëm ta konsideronit një gjest të tillë?

Unë nuk jam i njohur me këtë çështje, sinqerisht nuk jam, është hera e parë që dëgjoj për këtë, do ta kontrolloj.

Unë mendoj se të mësosh greqisht është e bukur, të mësosh çdo gjuhë është e bukur dhe të mësosh gjuhën e një fqinji është fantastike, e besoj. Unë jam shumë i vjetër tani për të mësuar greqisht, por do të më pëlqente. Ndoshta mund të bashkohem në një kurs në Himarë.

- It is well documented that you have a political collaboration with Tony Blair. Would you agree to Tony Blair acting as a mediator between you and Mitsotakis to resolve the Blair issue?

What would Tony Blair do? In the end he could lose between a Greek and an Albanian. It is better to talk about this matter together, Kyriakos and I. Kyriakos for me is a modern leader and what is happening now is not modern, it is ancient.


Në përputhje me standarded JTI

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